On One Health - A Conversation with Fanny Kaufmann

Episode Transcript

Claire  00:07

Hi, everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Narratives of Purpose. I am your host, Claire Murigande. On this podcast, I bring you inspiring individual stories of ordinary people who are making extraordinary social impact. My guest today is Fanny Kaufmann. Fanny is a global medical affairs leader in oncology at Takeda. She's also very passionate about animal welfare, public health and patient advocacy. In our conversation today, she tells me about her new journey into One Health, and how this approach, which is at the interface of human health, animal health and ecosystem health is a viable solution to solve global health challenges that humankind faces in the 21st century. Please take a moment to rate and review the show by subscribing on your preferred podcast platform. But for now, have a listen to my discussion with Fanny and her insights into one health. Hello, Fanny, and welcome to the podcast.

 

Fanny  01:17

Thank you. Hello, Claire, how are you?

 

Claire  01:20

Very good, fantastic. So today's discussion is a bit special because it was prompted by a reflection that I had over the current COVID 19 pandemic. We are now in early 2021. And we are entering the second year of this global situation. We have all changed our habits, the way we work, and the contact that we have with people around us. And one important achievement is that within one year, vaccines were developed. And they're now available. This means that from the time that the first cases were reported outside of China, early 2020, up until today, early 2021, we already have people who can benefit from the vaccines. And that's quite a remarkable achievement. And I wanted to have a discussion with you today Fanny because not only do we have similar backgrounds, we are both biologists, we both studied at the University of Geneva and have similar professional experience within pharmaceutical and biotech companies. But you have a special interest and even a passion I would say, for global health, one health and animal welfare. And I think the situation that we are in today is an evident reminder that everything and everyone is interconnected. You were the first person that introduced me to One Health. And I really look forward to learning more about this approach. But before we jump into that, I know you were on a sabbatical. And I'd like you to tell me about what kept you busy during this time.

 

Fanny  03:10

Thank you. Absolutely, you're right. So I decided despite the pandemic, to take a break from, from my professional life to explore different interests. And one of them, as you rightfully mentioned, is animal welfare. And One Health is the other one. And for the past six months, I've been very fortunate that I could go and help some animal shelters in different parts of the world. `first in Eastern Europe, and then in Mexico. One thing that really struck me is that we're all connected, whether we're a human being or an animal, we all have this primal instinct to you know, to survive to eat, fight disease, etc. But contrary to us humans, the animals, they're left to their own devices, I will say especially companion animals. And because of lack of regulation in policies in some countries, they end up having a huge population of stray animals on the streets. We have to fend for ourselves. So I decided, I want to experience and learn from the people in the front. How can we make the situation better? So I was helping really, namely with the spay neuter campaign, but as well as understanding what type of disease those animals have, some of them can be transmitted to humans, but not all of them. And in parallel, because it was very hands-on, I wanted to still keep challenging my brain and my intellectual side, I would say, and I started to embark on this journey of studying One Health with the University of Edinburgh. So that's a part time programme, where we're really exploring all the aspects of One Health and I'm sure we're going to talk a bit more about it in a minute.

 

Claire  04:59

You just mentioned animal welfare. Is that what brought you to understand and learn about this approach?

 

Fanny  05:06

That's a good point, actually, during the first lockdown in spring 2020. I was reflecting on what I can do, because we're all stuck at home, and I had enough of watching movies and series or reading books, and I wanted to learn new things. So I went on Coursera. I'm sure you're familiar with this platform. And it's a huge platform. So I wanted to learn more about animal welfare. So I typed in animal welfare, and I did some courses. But then when I looked as well into public health, which was another topic of my interest, I realised, actually there is an intersection, and animal welfare and health actually intersect with human health and ecosystem in general. And I decided to look more into this. And I found a fascinating course that was actually from the University of Geneva. Whose title was the Intersection Between Human Health, Animal Health and Ecosystem Health. And that's how my journey started in April 2020, so to speak, with One Health so it's quite recent for me as well.

 

Claire  06:17

Now, I'm more familiar with the concept of global health. But now you're telling me about the intersection between animals, ecosystems, environment, and human health? So is that the difference between global health and One Health?

 

Fanny  06:36

Yeah, so I think you understood, right. Global Health as we currently know it, and this term exists for many years, is really focusing on human health issues, which are present across continents, so to speak, they have a global impact or scale. One Health on the other hand is very recent, I think the term emerged in the early 2000s. And it's really about what connects human health with animal health and ecosystem health. When you start looking into this, you realise the field of, let's say medicine, whether it's human medicine, or veteran medicine, have been broken into silos. Although they have a lot in common. When you really start looking into this, you realise everything is interconnected and intertwined. So for instance, and I guess that's the most flagrant example that everyone is familiar with - COVID, the SARS-CoV-2 virus started, because it was present first in animals, usually in wildlife. And then it passed either on to a domestic animal with whom the human being had been in contact with, or sometime you can jump directly from the wildlife into the human population. So there are really a lot of connections. And this is something that's emerging in infectious diseases, which are really an important part, I will say, on the One Health agenda. But that's not the only area. But it's an important one.

 

Claire  08:10

Can you talk about the other areas? Or is it only this one area that is more of interest to you?

 

Fanny  08:18

This one is very permanent. But I will say the other topics of high interest are for instance, antimicrobial resistance, and food safety. And in general, I will say, the fact that we're going to have a growing population, so there's going to be more and more humans on this planet. We will start taking up more and more space on planet Earth. So we interact more with animals, whether we want to or not, with wildlife animals, and we take up more space on natural ecosystems, so on land that used to be untouched, and now it's going to be either covered by cities, or let's say, by human villages, or on the other hand, by fields because we need to grow more food to feed ourselves.

 

Claire  09:08

Okay, if I understand that correctly, it's a way of breaking the silos that we have built up with time, you know, to better define our own environment, our health, and bring everything together. Because in the end, there is no limit between all these aspects.

 

Fanny  09:27

Absolutely. There's a continuum actually, between human beings as well as the other species and how we live all together in the same environment. So we are all interconnected. Our health is definitely interconnected.

 

Claire  09:42

Can you apply this approach in your professional context? I mean, this is probably a provoking question. Because, working in the pharmaceutical industry, and now you have this interest in One Health, how do you bridge this interest in everything you're learning into your work today?

 

Fanny  10:02

That's a very good question. And I'm still figuring it out. I think one part that is interesting, in pharmaceutical companies, you have all these aspects of public affairs, you have corporate offers, and it's really how you connect to the external world, you work with partners, you interact with a lot of different stakeholders, as well as government, policymakers, etc. So I think what I would take from the One Health approach is really the mindset. It's about breaking down silos, as you said, it's about being collaborative. It's about working together and gathering different perspectives and expertise from stakeholders around the world from different areas, not only within the pharmaceutical and biotech, but also considering the needs and perspectives of others. So for instance, we need to consider the patient's, what their needs are and what connects them to a global issue. Same with physicians, we have been very good at connecting with physicians so far as a pharma company. But as well as connecting with payers, and government policymakers, as I mentioned, as well, and generally speaking, how we connect with society as a world. How do we, how do we come across, and I think we really learned from COVID, that we're all in this together, there's not one single country that's going to win, if the others are not in the same, let's say, designing the solution together. So for me, it's really that mindset, it's really about being more collaborative, being more open to learning from other perspectives, stakeholders, and bring those expertise together at the same table to define solutions that make sense for the 21st century challenges we are facing, which are truly global challenges.

 

Claire  12:01

Yeah, that's quite interesting, because talking again, about COVID 19, and the vaccine that was developed quite rapidly. I think the major question that comes up now is the access to the vaccine. Because what we see right now, is that the wealthiest countries are really fighting to get their doses. But then for the low and middle income countries, this is going to be a challenge. And as you were saying, I think the fact of collaborating and finding solutions with different partners for global issues, is going to be key. And one specific aspect is ensuring that access to medicine is going to be made available to literally all populations around the world. Is that something that one health is looking at? Or is it totally not related to the approach of One Health?

 

Fanny  13:11

No, I think I do and just to comment on what you mentioned at the beginning, on the access to the vaccine for the current pandemic, I think that something has been strongly acknowledged by WHO and they did design COVAX, that's actually an accelerator where they really tried to bring old players together. And the goal, the ultimate goal is working for global equitable access to the COVID vaccine. And one of their taglines is: no one is safe, unless everyone is safe. And I think for me, this is what we need to keep in mind. This is not about you, or me or an individual, my grandpa or my colleague, it's about everyone. So we really have to step back and think, Okay, we're not the only one affected, we need to have a more global approach to this problem, which is very difficult, because at the end of the day, a lot of our society lives in a very individualistic manner. So I think access to medicine is a big topic and will remain a big topic on the agenda for all diseases and for health, generally speaking, and that's really something that's very close to my heart, that I hope I can, you know, contribute to this as well in my future role as well.

 

Claire  14:39

So what do you think people who are listening now and who are interested in the topic, need to know? Are there some ongoing initiatives in terms of increasing awareness in this area?

 

Fanny  14:52

So generally speaking, I would say more coming back to One Health initiatives, there is a One Health Commission, they have a website that you can find a lot of information on. And they do a lot of education initiatives. So I know that one of them that I just came across recently and I found was very interesting was about how bats and rabies, rabies is a very old disease, I'm sure, people may be familiar with that, your dog or your cat could be at risk of rabies, if you travel, you always need to have anti rabies vaccine for them. So there is some education, for instance, around that, there is the aspects, which are I think, more innovative, but as well, One Health beyond the fact that we really focus a lot on on science, on health, whether the ecosystem, human or animal, there is as well, the social science aspect. How do we behave, as a community how we evolve and the socio economic aspects. So they have some educational resources. And there is, I think, a team page that they're developing, focusing on the social science aspects of One Health as well. So, I think there's a lot happening, it's a fascinating field, because it's really going in many directions. I think what is important is that we still keep focusing on what is the goal, the ultimate goal? One thing I really do appreciate is to see that it's really acknowledged now by the WHO, by the AHO, by the FAO, so I stand for the Animal Health Organisation, FAO stands for the Food and Agriculture Organisation. They really embed this One Health approach in the programme and they collaborate as well. Because again, even huge organisations such as the One Health Organisation might be very siloed from their neighbour who are the Animal Health Organisation.

 

Claire  17:06

Yeah, it's true, it's good to know that even these big structures can collaborate, because I think it also sets a good example, right?

 

Fanny  17:14

And to the point that you just mentioned before other ongoing initiatives, because the One Health agenda became so big over time, there is no world One Health Congress happening every year for the past three or four years, I believe. The last one was virtual, but in the future, I'm sure that people that are interested in that topic could attend. And I think it's usually always at the end of October or early November.

 

Claire  17:40

So another question. Do you know from your experience and what you have been studying so far, if there are hotspots, I'm not sure if this is the right word to use. But if there are hotspots around the world, that might eventually trigger a new pandemic, or some sort of outbreak at a large scale. I'm thinking, for example, about things like Ebola, or even the fact that, you know, the forest in the Amazonian region is just going down at such a rapid speed. Are we at some sort of risk to develop diseases that we haven't been confronted with before?

 

Fanny  18:23

I think many places in the world are at potential risk. And because we live in such a global world, then everyone is at risk. But for instance, I think the example you brought up about Ebola is computerised, but as well from other infectious diseases, which are no longer new, but we've heard a lot about re-emergence of older diseases, for instance, it's not because the pandemic, let's say, of MERS, or SARS back from the early 2000s are under control that the problem is over. It's far from being over actually, it's always being monitored. And as long as there is, let's say, a proper surveillance in place from the different agencies as well as the government etc, then we are fine. But the same was with rabies that I mentioned earlier, which is a very simple example. But this has been around for a very long time, decades. And we still have cases of rabies around the world. So whether it's going to become a pandemic, probably not because we have vaccines for the animals. We have programmes in place. But at the end of the day, I think it's all about how we humans tend to take up space in nature, because we're a growing population around the world. We need space, whether it's for us to live as a habitat, or to grow food to feed ourselves. So that, per definition for itself, will create conflict with ecosystems and modify them. Whether they are resilient enough to sustain our growth is a big question.

 

Claire  20:04

Okay, so I see it's quite complex. And I have to say that when I was preparing the discussion, you can easily get lost when you start diving into this topic. There's so many interconnections in somehow you don't know where to start, it might sound a bit frightening and even pessimistic to some extent, because we see all the harm, if I could put it like that, that we have done to our planet. But at the same time, I think we need to and we still have to be optimistic. Because even just the fact that in this past year, we were able to put together so many resources to develop a new vaccine, to face this global situation, this also shows that we can bring these resources together, to work towards our own well being and the well being of our environment, and the ecosystem where we live. But still, I do think that it's kind of an alarm signal for all of us. What do you think?

 

Fanny  21:17

No, I think you're right, I think, indirectly, we are connected to climate change and the global climate crisis, which we know has been happening for, for for a while, but global warming and its consequences, but we haven't really tackled it as strong, because maybe we don't see the impact on our daily lives. Because it's not as restraining. So I agree in a way, I think we could always see the current situation as an alarm for us to maybe reflect on how we want to behave in which future world we want to live in.

 

Claire  22:02

So what would be your advice for younger people who want to start a career in life sciences?

 

Fanny  22:09

So I think the first one first and foremost, and this advice is for everyone, to be curious. Curiosity is very healthy in the sense that it makes you challenge your thinking, you want to learn more, you want to discover more. So I think it's very important to bring this attitude to the table, regardless of what you want to study in life science in particular. And I think I reflect because I graduated around 14 years ago. I think it has extremely changed the way we are teaching nowadays. And I realised that in my part time degree I'm doing One Health. I think collaboration is really critical. Because there is such a vast amount of knowledge and data. We cannot organise it by ourselves. And we need to acknowledge that a lot of different people bring different expertise. And each of them is required. We each bring a piece of the puzzle together if you wish. So having this collaborative mindset, breaking the silos, challenging the status quo, it's not because something hasn't been done in the past that cannot be done in the future, I think we need to keep this energy and positivity that we can find solutions together. I think that's the most important thing. Attitude is everything.

 

Claire  23:35

Great advice? Is there anything that you would like to add on this topic that you probably might have forgotten to mention? And you think it's relevant for the listeners to know about?

 

Fanny  23:50

One topic that maybe I didn't dive so much into, on ongoing initiatives, but or maybe something where there's maybe a need for increased awareness and it's already happening? It's about AMR, the antimicrobial resistance. I think it's the next big, as we call it in French, Damoclès sword above humanities health, so AMR in short is a fact that we have bacteria that resist the current antibiotics available. And nowadays, we are extremely lucky because with the current antibiotics, we can easily, you know, undergo normal surgery. It dramatically decreases premature deaths of newborns, etc. So we take it for granted. Because we have penicillin and all those other fabulous antibiotics that work well. Unfortunately, the forecast is that by 2050, which is only 30 years from now, the number of deaths because of AMR is gonna be tenfold. So we're gonna have 10 million people that will not be able to undergo normal surgery etc, because they won't have any treatment and you have prophylactic preventive treatment that they can take. That's gonna surpass the number of cancer deaths worldwide. So that's huge. I think everyone knows how important cancer is. So it's gonna be worse. So I think you really have a role as well to educate ourselves, to learn more. What can we do to decrease potential antibiotic consumption in humans, but not only humans, in animals as well, because remember, we eat a lot of them. So what you eat is what you become in a way. So the impact is really on a large scale. So we should really keep learning more about that field. That's one of the courses that for me, is the most fascinating in One House where it's the next big challenge for human health. So we can tackle it with the One Health approach, hopefully

 

Claire  26:03

Yeah, thanks for adding that. And I also had a conversation on one of the previous episodes of the podcast, with someone who had to work in this field as well. And right now, you just mentioned something to explain the scale of this issue, really. And they said, there's also antibiotics that are given to animals. I think that's a very critical point that doesn't come to mind immediately, especially, you know, for me, when I'm thinking about AMR.

 

Fanny  26:34

yes and I agree with it for me as well, it was a bit of a wake up call during my course. How in the environment those resistant bacteria as well can survive based on the ecosystem they are in, potentially because of human activities, pollution, and things like that and that's another aspect that for me was completely unheard of. So again, AMR is a very interesting topic, if you get the chance to learn more about it. That's something I would definitely recommend. One of the key initiatives currently undergoing in Canada, is called CIPARS. And the idea is really about having an integrated programme for antimicrobial resistance surveillance. And here, one key aspect is really that the green, let's say, the public health office together with the animal health office, within the country to work closely together. So being co-located in the same building, and having joint work streams to learn more from each other's activities. But most importantly, when there is a new virus detected, for instance, in some animal or wildlife, they can quickly discuss if there is a potential impact with their human health colleagues. It's a very tangible initiative currently happening in Canada that brings a lot of positive outcomes in the AMR management and surveillance.

 

Claire  28:08

That's a very good example. And as you say, it makes it more tangible. So you can really see where the areas of collaboration are. And the outcomes of that. Now, before we close the discussion, you know that I like to get a sneak preview into what my guests are listening to in terms of music, but also what they're reading. So are you ready for my quick three questions?

 

Fanny  28:33

Yes I am!

 

Claire  28:35

 Okay, let's go. First question. What is the book that you're reading right now? Or what is the song that you are constantly listening to?

 

Fanny  28:44

So I'm reading a book written by a friend of mine called Jane Piper and it's called Focus in the Age of Distraction: 35 tips to focus more and work less. She wrote it three years ago. And I have to say, it's very appropriate nowadays. Because we spend so much time on screens, behind computers and on mobile phones, especially during the pandemic, it's hard to really be focused on one task at a time. So she gives a lot of tips, which I enjoy very much. I'm still in the second chapter of this book, but I will definitely recommend it to anyone, it's an easy read.

 

Claire  29:22

Question two. Is there a song or an artist, or perhaps even a book that has particularly resonated with you at a specific time in your life?

 

Fanny  29:32

So for me it's more of an artist, in fact, it's a band called The Beatles. I used to listen to them a lot when I was younger, through my parents, I had the red and the blue albums for the people that knew that and I enjoyed I enjoyed because there was a little booklet where I could read the lyrics in English and for me it was like learning English at the time and I enjoy their the lyrics I find most of their songs at least from the red album very positive. It brings a lot of joy to me and I still enjoy listening to them regularly.

 

Claire  30:04

Third and last question, what is your all time favourite book or your all time favourite album that you absolutely recommend?

 

Fanny  30:14

So my favourite book is Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harare, maybe you've heard about it? Cannot describe in a nutshell what it's about because it's so fascinating. It's really about the evolution of us, of the human species, putting it in the context of the different agricultural revolution. Yeah, it's something that really it attracted me and I still have a lot of interest to learn more and to see how we can define humanity which way we're going basically, I think it speaks a lot of truth. And it asks a lot of questions, basically, which I don't necessarily have an answer to yet. But I think it's a very thought provoking book that I would recommend.

 

Claire  31:06

It's actually very interesting that you mentioned that book because my first guest on this podcast series recommended another book from the same author, which is Homo Deus. Coincidentally enough, I actually received both these books. And now that I've heard from two different people that these are books they absolutely recommend, I can't wait to start reading them. So Fanny, it's been really nice to have this conversation with you. And I really look forward to your journey throughout One Health and where it's going to bring you and especially how you will implement this in your professional life

 

Fanny  31:47

It's a journey as you mentioned. Thanks a lot for the opportunity Claire to discuss with you on One Health and other related global health topics.

 

Claire  32:03

That was episode six, a conversation with Fanny Kaufmann. Fanny is definitely one of the most optimistic, positive and curious people I have come to know. She is now on an ambitious journey to find solutions to global challenges through the One Health approach. I truly hope we're able to trigger your interest in the area of One Health, and that you'll have the chance to check out some of the resources Fanny mentioned. You will find all the links and references from our conversation on the podcast website. So just type in your browser narratives-of-purpose.podcastpage.io and click on the episode. Thank you so much for tuning in today and listening to this new episode. I really appreciate you taking the time. Make sure you follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter to get timely updates. Until the next episode, take care of yourselves stay well and stay inspired.