On Learning Assertiveness - A Conversation with Alessandra Patti

Episode Transcript

Claire  00:06

Hi everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Narratives of Purpose. I am your host Claire Murigande. On this podcast, I bring you inspiring individual stories of ordinary people making extraordinary social impact. My guest today is Alessandra Patti. Alessandra is an assertiveness skills and mental well being coach. She founded FindYourWay Coaching in 2017, which is a consulting practice based in Zurich. Alessandra is also a lecturer on assertiveness skills for the future of work and self esteem in the digital age at the University of St. Gallen. Our discussion today is about Developing assertiveness skills. Alessandra shares with me the many benefits of consistently practicing assertiveness at the workplace and with family. She also explains how mental wellbeing is connected to assertive communication. Please take a moment to rate and review the show by subscribing on your favourite podcast platform. But for now, have a listen to Alessandra's story, her passion for learning, supporting others to overcome challenges and self care. So welcome Alessandra to the podcast.

 

Alessandra  01:24

Hi, Claire, thank you for having me.

 

Claire  01:26

I hope you're doing good today. And I'm very excited to have you on the show. So thank you so much for joining me and for accepting my invitation. So Alessandra, we basically met through a mutual friend of ours. And when I looked up your profile on LinkedIn, I was really amazed and impressed by your achievements. And one of them is actually that you are a lecturer at the University of St. Gallen and you lecture assertiveness skills for the future of work. So I was very, very intrigued about that. On top of that there is a quote on your profile, which says that "education is the most powerful weapon you can use to change the world". It's a quote by Nelson Mandela. And you say that you 100% agree with that. Now, before we jump into education, and your whole journey around that, and what you have been doing in this field, I would like you to tell me more about your background. And especially tell me why you agree with that quote?

 

Alessandra  02:35

Wow, it's because of many reasons. But I'll try to keep it short. You know, I'm a talker. And first of all, thank you for your words. Also, I was very impressed with your profile too, to be completely honest. So I do believe that education is really a great tool to change things. This is why I quote Nelson Mandela on that one. I think that learning has an element to it, of the playfulness, and probably also my passion for learning, it really helps people go through their challenges. So learning is like a therapeutic element, if you will. So this is why I really think that education is just so important.

 

Claire  03:18

That's really great. But tell me a little bit about your background. How did you come to be passionate about communication and self care? You're not only a lecturer, you're also a coach, you have your own practice, and you focus on men's mental health. Tell me more about where your passion for communication and self care comes from?

 

Alessandra  03:41

Yes, sure. So I really think it comes from my personality. So I'm a big talker, as I said before, so I was never afraid of saying things since I was a young girl. I love debates, I love anecdotes, I love storytelling. I was in the local school newspaper back in high school, you know, when you have those, like journalists club or something like this, I really think it's a personality thing. So when it comes to my passion for communication, I really want to speak out and speak up. That's part of me. And self care, I think is mainly because I'm Italian - the Italian in me, you know taking care of ourselves is something really embedded in our culture as Italian. If you think to be well dressed or to feel good, and not to mention also like the food, to eat well because food is good for the soul - we deserve a good meal, something I think that my grandparents actually said and my grandpa was also an elegant man too. I think I always had him as a role model. And this has a lot to do with my passion for self care. And I think it's something natural because it's about self love. I know that for some cultures it's not so intuitive to think that self care is something that you deserve. And we'll talk about that, I'm sure. But I think it's really a habit and something about the playfulness, and the being Italian that has to do with that.

 

Claire  05:11

It's really fascinating. I really enjoy listening to that, because you really bring your own story in everything that you do. And I found that quite beautiful, I have to say. Looking back a little bit more on your background, I noticed that you started your career in a more corporate environment. Now you have become independent. And as I said before, you're focusing on mental health, on assertive communication, and self esteem, and other topics that will go into detail. So what led you to transition from this corporate environment to become independent?

 

Alessandra  05:50

Do you have three hours, Claire? I'm joking. I'm joking. But yes, well, of course, it's part of a personal story, part of professional history, and also a transition. Yes. So I will tell you a little bit. It's a combination of many factors. So entrepreneurship was always something that I was curious about. And I think it came because of the idea of the freedom, the freedom that comes with working for yourself, right. So you know, about 10 years ago, when I arrived in Switzerland, actually, almost 11. My very first independent job was to teach salsa dancing. And I think I had never told you when we met actually, for the first time, because I'm a passionate dancer, and I really like that all of a sudden I became really curious in the techniques of dancing. So I was thinking, okay, the only way to really get into technique is also to become a teacher. So I love teaching salsa here in Zurich, and I did it for a number of years, I think almost five, just as a side job. And I loved to teach people. I love to encourage people in general. And it also taught me a lot about learning styles, which I actually use now in my coaching practice at the university. People learn differently. And this is really a gift to see it in the dancing especially. But I knew that this was not the only thing that I wanted to do so I was working in corporate in the marketing department and I was teaching salsa as a hobby side job. But I knew that this was not going to be it - that I wanted to do something more, so I actually during my working hours, I really fulfilled my communication skills, my organisation skills with a marketing job, I was also in charge of organising events. Because of my personality I've always liked marketing, as I told you before, a little bit, the journalist flavour, but I was always the one in the workplace, listening to others. So when people would have a problem, they would come to me. Maybe they wanted to vent about something, or they were afraid of something and I always had an encouraging word. And during the time we had in this company, I used to work with an excellent HR person, and I was telling her that maybe I could make a change. And I was then going to coaching psychology school at the time. I would like to continue my education at a school for psychology, and then a full diploma for coaching and working at the same time. So I was really thinking about making an internal change. So in going to the talent development direction, I was not so clear at the time. So I talked about probably 2013, 2014. And then something happened that made the transition a little bit more pushy. The fact that the company was restructuring, as they call it, even though I don't like this word. But I was made redundant. So the step was kind of forced, now, what do I do now that I felt that the transition was already in place? What should I do? Right? So I really started coaching people part time, and that was reading a massive amount of information about what kind of coach I want to be, what would be the element of my coaching practice? So at the time, I had a book called the Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. It's like a Bible to me. And I started thinking, if self esteem really plays a role in how you communicate and how we behave at work, then maybe I should go in that direction. So, you know, while I was still in the company, we were doing coaching for groups. I volunteered in the company to say I would like to coach people in customer service, because they have so much work, do they do self care? What do they communicate? Right? I was just so curious. And I saw that self esteem and the idea that you have, look at yourself, together with time management and the boundaries was making a difference. So that's a little bit when you know, like everything from the corporate to the independent to the assertive communication. And the mental wellbeing, you asked me before about the mental well being right. So, this was a natural consequence of what I started doing as a coach because assertive communication is very powerful. And when I started actually being more assertive myself, I thought wow, I feel happier. I do believe there is a lot of science talking about how assertive communication helps with mental well being and actually there is so, it helps with addiction, with anxiety, there are just so many scientific articles on how it helps people, especially teenagers, developing a really strong personality and leadership skills

 

Claire  10:41

amazing such a great amount of knowledge you just shared right now, you just mentioned there that assertive communication is quite central. And from what I hear an assertiveness skill set is an important thing for you in your coaching practice and also as a lecturer. So how do you address these two different contexts? Because you're speaking about the same thing, but then you have two different groups that you are addressing. So, you have either individuals or companies as a coach, and then you have the students as a lecturer at the University. So, how do you address these two different contexts in your approach of assertiveness skills?

 

Alessandra  11:27

Yeah, so, you are completely right it's basically to big groups. So, first of all, there is a lot of mental wellbeing and preventative aspects to it. So, since assertiveness creates better mental wellbeing I decided to become a Mental Health First Aid instructor. So mental health first aid is relatively new in Switzerland, sincere about the year 2019. I became an instructor for that as a natural consequence. So I thought okay, if I also place some mental wellbeing element when I talk to my clients about assertiveness, this will reach their heart and make such more of an impact in their company. Not to mention the Coronavirus pandemic became something of a health issue, of course, for people who are struggling a lot with working from home. And with the lack of connection and being isolated. So first of all to start with the companies and the individuals; So the first group, for companies, it's an integral part of my mental wellbeing offer of programmes, because if we teach people how to communicate better with each other imagine in teams, for example, if we teach them how to use nonviolent communication and being compassionate with each other, people thrive, they really do thrive even in remote settings? So imagine people in teams, establishing a healthier relationship with their jobs, with their own vacation, there are still cases in which people would feel guilty if they go on vacation, for example, right now they were at home, they say "where would I go?" if there is a pandemic or, for example, to ask for things at work in general, all. So I do believe that those taboos no longer apply. So talking freely, and being able to express what you want, is also important. In any situation, right? Maybe you want to talk about your emotional distress at work, and you feel it's not proper. And I want to really encourage people through assertiveness to do that. So if we start with assertiveness, as in, for example, authentic and honest and open communication, then we bring it to the next level, right? We become more open in general, then we can talk about, like our own feelings or mental distress. And we operate a lot on prevention. So for companies, it's a lot about that. I use coaching in this sense of prevention, too. And when we open the taboo about assertiveness, then we use the right language, and we embrace self compassion, we stop being aggressive with our colleagues, or we stop interrupting them. It's the same thing with individuals, for example, teaching how not to hide yourself. So when I coach people in being assertive, I tell them to not make yourself smaller, also, with our body language, don't hide yourself, claim your space, both at work, and in life, of course. wWhich ultimately, so if you think it's just being honest with yourself, right, so in order to make great things, you have to have this self knowledge and this self honesty. It's like if you talk about the elephant in the room with yourself, at your company, and with everybody, and it doesn't mean to be disruptive in a bad way. It means really, let's be open. Let's break those taboos that damage us. And it's also about time management, so imagine if a person struggles with juggling things or struggles to say no, then with assertiveness, I coach them into placing boundaries. So healthy boundaries. The boundaries topic is central for me also in burnout prevention because if we really manage our time and place healthy boundaries and we communicate them assertively, we can just do so much before it's too late. So this is really a lot about the first group of individuals and companies. Regarding the university is also about leadership. So if I teach the students about, what it means in the future of work to be better leaders? We need to talk about self esteem and self assertiveness. In our education system we want people to thrive, to respect each other, and also to communicate non-aggressively. I think that people still think that you have to fake it till you make it. So I will fake aggressiveness so people will respect me, I do not believe it should be like this, I think it no longer applies. I think we need to strive for authenticity. So not being super indirect, or super direct, but actually being us and telling the truth. So an example is "I statements". So instead of accusing somebody "you are like this" or "you are always late" or "your ideas are not good". Why don't we use the "I statements"? So that's where I teach a lot at the university. And one of my focuses is also digital communication, because I realised that all communication that's happening in the university environment is on WhatsApp. And there you cannot rely on nonverbal clues, so we cannot see each other. And it's such a challenge for younger people to find the balance when you communicate. So this is how I place assertiveness and mental wellbeing in those two different groups.

 

Claire  16:56

Wow, that's really, really impressive I have to say, I took a few notes while you were speaking. And I just want to highlight a few things that came out from your answer there. Don't hide yourself, claim your space - that was really powerful, and set healthy boundaries. And then there's a couple of other things that you said, like communicating non aggressively, and also being us and telling the truth. I mean, these are simple things. And just like many simple things, the most simple things are the most effective. And I think that's why these are really powerful. I am not a student of yours, I'm not a coach. But I did benefit from this short session.

 

Alessandra  17:39

thank you, I'm really happy to be here. And I'm happy to be able to tell everybody, you know those things they're simple, and they're very effective, I totally agree with you. But sometimes they are not easy, because we're so used to having another attitude. So sometimes, even if they sound simple, they might be hard. And this is when coaching comes to play that could be a great way to learn those things.

 

Claire  18:04

Absolutely agree. And maybe I can pick your brains here? Because you just said something that is quite common. We say that we were not used to doing that. And for me the way I think and the way I see things, it's all education, but education at a much earlier age. So do you think that everything you just mentioned before, talking about students, and people who are already in the workplace. These are certainly things that you can teach children? What do you think?

 

Alessandra  18:36

I totally agree. I do believe that if we were to teach, of course, the importance of honesty, and the importance of authenticity at an earlier age, we would also have different leaders, and very authentic leaders. So, again, I am not an expert in very early education. So I do not know if this is something currently done. But I do believe that in general, schools all over the world could teach self esteem, and could teach authentic or nonviolent communication. It should be in the basic curriculum. I strongly believe that.

 

Alessandra  19:12

And there's something else that I also saw recently is that you launched the virtual assertiveness school. So I'd like to know what is that all about? And what goal are you trying to achieve with this school? All right,

 

Alessandra  19:27

Thank you for the question, because it's really just coming out and it will start on the 26th of April. So basically, it's a lot of what I just told you about all the aspects of assertiveness, the boundaries, the time management, the communication, and the self care and self love. But all in one. So I created an educational platform there with coaching as the main live sessions. So imagine you had a school in which you would go six times because it's six weeks to receive coaching in groups. And I think I heard the needs of my clients there because some people were like, Yes, I do like the commitment of individual coaching. But sometimes I would love to be in a group, especially now that we are a little bit more isolated. So I said I could create a space in an online group situation where people can share. And they can be coached in groups and work on their assertiveness in a safe space. So it's really the focus on the group and on specific exercises about assertiveness, so each week is a different one. And another goal, of course, is really to make people learn how to stop their inner critic when this becomes too much, because this is something that hinders assertiveness. If you continue talking to yourself in a negative way, it's going to be very hard to be assertive with others. So let people really talk to themselves in a compassionate way to have a positive narrative. Like a narrative of purpose. Like the title of your podcast really, it inspires me to have a narrative with oneself, which is more compassionate. Since as we were talking about like, at the beginning, I believe a lot in the power of education, and I want to spread it more, I said I would call it assertiveness schools. So then you know that you come in an environment that is like a school, but it has a lot of coaching elements. Rather than workshops it's really like self learning, if you will. Also during these coaching sessions, I will explain the neuroscience of assertiveness through articles of people who are regarded in the mental health industry. So then I can bring evidence of the strong benefits of assertiveness that I also saw with my clients. And it's a type of coaching that encourages people to do what we said before not to, you don't have to live up to standards that are set for you. You can also choose to speak differently to say things in a different way, and make a change, right. And one of my exercises is called  the family table. Because after so many hours with clients, I really understood that it's quite hard to be assertive in two places, especially one is the workplace. And the other one is sometimes with the family. So how to be assertive with my family? How do I say no to the people that are the most important to me, right? So I created an exercise called Family Table where I make people role play family confrontation. And, believe me, it's a game changer, because once you become more assertive in one area, it really goes dramatically into the other areas. So we benefit from all areas if you will.

 

Claire  22:53

Okay, I see. So the school is basically a platform where you can learn and be coached in groups, right? And bouncing back on something that you just said right there. In terms of developing assertiveness skills, it's certainly something important at the individual level in the workplace. So the question to you is, do you see this taking a more and more essential role? And what trends are ongoing in this space? You mentioned earlier that you have been working in this area for a very short time so quite recently, especially in Switzerland, but in other countries? What is happening? Are there specific trends happening in other places in the world, for example?

 

Alessandra  23:43

Sure. I do see a trend of great interest for nonviolent communication skills, assertive communication skills in teams, and very much tied to mental wellbeing. I think that's the trend that I'm seeing right now. And I was starting to see that even before the pandemic, I think that the pandemic made it just more obvious that there is a need there to always have a wellbeing structure in place that has to do with many aspects, self care, but also communication, how we communicate can be a game changer or can be a game-stopper. People can really suffer from lack of communication. So I think that sometimes we only talk about communication in companies, then it may sound like something we have already seen. "This is another communication workshop." And I want to really avoid that. So I want to really focus, and that's the trend I see, on the benefits of assertiveness in professional and personal wellbeing. Another trend that I see a lot is a great focus on prevention, so on mental distress or mental illness prevention. Now we are working remotely and people are thinking "okay, if I work remotely and work from home, there is no risk of me feeling the stress of me burning out" But actually, it's not like that. So you can have a remote work burnout because of possible lack of boundaries or because we put pressure on ourselves. And I see a trend actually, of great interest in remote burnout prevention in what we can actually do to be together even remotely because this is here to stay. I think that the flexibility at work is something that makes such a difference on our mental wellbeing. And how to be assertive remotely is a challenge. Because again, there is no body language, but there is also like a little bit of more distance, like amongst the individuals. So this is why in all my remote coaching sessions on assertiveness, I always say okay, let's do a little bit of body language, even if it's on camera. So I put myself a little bit more distance from the camera, so they can see at least my torso and my arms. And I tell them, "Okay, open communication, body language" , to be more assertive, look at the camera, turn on your camera, you want to have that connection to people. So I also think that another trend is to try to work on the courage of speaking up and not fear of speaking up. Sometimes we have all these assumptions. If I speak up about my situation at home, I'm going to be fired. If I speak up about what I need at work, or my mental distress, I'm going to be fired. And that's going to be the end. And sometimes it's just an assumption. So I think it's part of human fear. And it's normal. And it's part of being compassionate with ourselves and saying my needs are important, I want to speak for them. So that's really the trend that I see more and more.

 

Claire  26:49

Yeah, that's very insightful. Thank you. And let me come back to something you mentioned right now, and also earlier, which is the COVID-19 pandemic. So my question is, you just spoke about remote burnout. But have you observed some other aspects in your coaching practice, or also with students that were not there before the pandemic and that you have to deal with perhaps some more, or even for the first time, I would say, that you hadn't had to deal with before the pandemic?

 

Alessandra  27:24

In general, I think a general digital fatigue, in general confused about how to organise oneself, for example, between house chores, and also hobbies, which was something also that probably was not the question before. Because if you go out, maybe you combine your chores and your hobby with work, right, maybe going to the gym, or, or doing your favourite hobby, right after work. That didn't seem to be a strong issue, if you will. Self care was still an issue. But now it's even worse, because we're home. So how do I create a time in the space for my hobby or for my favourite activities, or to learn something new? Also, because I'm learning it on the computer. So I really see that also, at the same time, some difficulties in the communication aspect, as I said before, so for sure, some digital fatigue and some communication challenges. And, again, the boundaries, right, so how do I place boundaries, if I'm home? Do I even put them? Boundaries in terms of confinement, are they realistic? And I always tell my clients that they are. Because we still need to protect ourselves from too much of something, we still need to organise our day. So this hasn't changed. So boundaries doesn't mean division. It means protection means healthy communication. And it means more freedom. This is something that I noticed through the topic of the pandemic. And I'm helping the clients or companies to sort those things through better communication and a few other tips on mental wellbeing.

 

Claire  29:18

I have one more question, a bit more out of curiosity. Earlier, you mentioned that with your programme and the school that you want to put in place. You also include a lot of the neuroscience that is behind all the mental wellbeing, so do you collaborate with researchers or scientists who are active in that field to put in place your programme?

 

Alessandra  29:42

So I do have a great contact at the University of Zurich, which a friend of mine has helped through, some articles to really look into what is assertiveness? How it is used around the world because you know it's not so easy to find articles on this specific terminology, because if you use other terminology, for example, boundaries, or self care probably it's easier. But the terminology of assertiveness sometimes is a bit difficult. This is why I think it's not easy to find. But I do have a few contacts that really helped me navigate this. I really believe in cooperation, I love when people help each other from different walks of life and in different industries. I'm learning a lot from those people.

 

Claire  30:27

Fantastic. I couldn't agree more. So now, before we move to the last part of the show, I'd like to give you an opportunity to share with our listeners, anything else that you think is relevant on this topic, you know, around self esteem, self care and mental wellbeing, that you think is important for our listeners to know about that we haven't mentioned up to this point in our discussion. So just go ahead.

 

Alessandra  30:55

I think that one very, very important message for me is always remember that self care is not a luxury it's a habit is a need. And it will inform everything that you do. It will inform your communication, your assertiveness or lack thereof, everything you do is connected to your self love and connected to your self image. And it's just too important. So I want to repeat self care isn't a luxury it's a need. And whenever you're doing something related to self care, imagine, not only like a body spa, but a mental spa. This is why I actually in occasion like of the future World Health Day 2021, I will repeat something called mental spa. I thought that mental wellbeing spa is a concept that is really cool. I love the analogy because I love going to the spa. And if you would imagine that self care would be like going to a massage but like massage for your mind, right? Or any other analogy of a hot tub or whatever. Would you do it more frequently? totally! If we could just change the way we look into self care, I think it will be a big game changer.

 

Claire  32:13

That's really amazing. I really love the mental spa concept. It's such a great idea. It makes sense. And it's an easy way to remember that and make sure that we don't forget to take care of our minds as much as we take care of our bodies. Yeah, thank you for that. Absolutely. So Alessandra now at the end of my show, what I like to do is to get a sneak preview into what my guests are reading or what music that they're listening to. Are you ready for my three quick questions?

 

Alessandra  32:45

I am ready.

 

Claire  32:48

Okay, let's go. Question number one. What song are you listening to non stop these days? Or in case you don't listen to much music? What book are you reading right now?

 

Alessandra  32:58

Okay, I do both. I'm listening in an obsessive way to the song by The Weekend, which is called In Your Eyes. I just love the rhythm too much. It reminds me of the 80s or something I really love. It just makes me passionate. I'm also reading two books at the time because I'm an avid reader. So I'm reading a book called Genius Foods, about nutrition and mental wellbeing. This is one book and the second book is called The Body Keeps the Score because I'm very much interested in the topic of trauma and how to find solutions and body healing. It's also a very interesting read.

 

Claire  33:39

Question number two, is there an artist or a song? Or perhaps even a book that has particularly resonated with you at a specific time in your life?

 

Alessandra  33:51

There is a book that really resonated with me when I arrived in Switzerland it is basically the the romantic love story of two Indians, one from the north and one from the south and is written by Chetan Bhagat, which is one of my favourite writers actually, it really helped me because when I first arrived here, I found a lot of comfort in the diversity of culture that is here in Zurich, so I made friends with an Indian guy and also with other 1000 cultures. And he kept telling me about  this book. So I really recommend the book "Two States" and there is also a movie that they did on Netflix. So I think it really resonated with me 11 years ago when I arrived here. I identify a lot with him, actually, a little bit of the drama. Like Italian culture, I really identify with that. Both drama and also irony. I think that irony and fun is a way that helps me really cope with myself when I take myself too seriously and I know I'm starting to stress out or exaggerate something. I love to go back to that book and and have a good laugh and absorb a little bit of The romantic aspect

 

Claire  35:01

sounds really nice. Third and last question. What is your old time favourite album? Or your all time favourite book that you would absolutely recommend?

 

Alessandra  35:13

Can I recommend three?

 

Claire  35:17

Of course you can recommend three.

 

Alessandra  35:20

I'm sorry, I told you I'm a big talker. So Bohemian Rhapsody is this song by the Queen. Keeps me going every time. So, listen to it, I recommend people to look into if they love Latin music. I recommend Bachata music. Somebody called Romeo Santos, who is my favourite, you know, the Aventura group was world renowned. And now he sings solo and it really helps my mood. A book that I absolutely recommend is Man's Search of Meaning. My husband gave it to me as a present and I really enjoyed it. It has just so much history to it. And really, it's just so touching. Maybe a fourth one very, very, very quick one to read about the digital world is Digital Etiquette. And I'm done, I promise.

 

Claire  36:08

Great. Thank you so much Alexandra for all these recommendations. I can see that you're very passionate about the music and also some of the books

 

Alessandra  36:17

Yes I am Thank you really for listening appreciate

 

Claire  36:20

it was really really great. I learned a lot as I said before I took many notes. I hope that we will stay in touch and of course I wish you much success especially with your assertiveness cool that you just launched. Thank you and thank you for sharing your experience today with me it was really amazing.

 

Alessandra  36:40

Thanks again and we will stay in touch and Thank you Claire for this and a big hug to everybody.

 

Claire  36:47

Bye bye

 

Claire  36:54

That was episode nine, a conversation with Alessandra Patti. Alessandra has such an amazing positive energy. She has beautifully drawn from her personal experience to inspire and support others to learn. In case you wish to dive a bit deeper into Alessandra's work. Her coaching practice has a YouTube channel and you can easily subscribe to it. You can also have a look at the book titled Activate Your Life, which Alessandra co-authored. This book is a collection of 50 transformational exercises from top cultures around the world. The link to this book, the YouTube channel, plus additional links on references from our conversation are listed on the podcast page. You certainly have the page bookmarked by now. But if you don't simply type in your browser narratives-of-purpose.podcastpage.io and click on this episode.

 

Claire  37:52

Thank you so much for tuning in today and listening to this new episode. I really appreciate you taking the time. Make sure you follow us on social media, either LinkedIn, Instagram or Twitter to get timely updates. Tune in again in April for our two last episodes of season one. Until then, take care of yourselves stay well and as always stay inspired