On this first episode, I speak with Pauline Koelbl about what motivated the creation of her new ventures: AfriProspect and ShEquity. Pauline is an innovation expert in developing and emerging markets. She invests in African impactful innovative startups with a special focus on female-led businesses. In our discussion, Pauline also shares what future trends she is looking out for post-COVID-19.
At the end of the show, I ask all my guests the same set of questions to get a sneak preview into their favourite music or books. Here are the links to Pauline's answers. The song she constantly listens to at the moment is 'Jerusalema' by Master KG. The songs that particularly resonated with her at a specific time in her life are 'Zangawela' (the original song from 'Waka Waka, time for Africa' by Shakira) and 'Happy' by Pharrell Williams. Her all-time favourite book that she absolutely recommends is Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow by Yuval Noah Harari.
In case you wish to have more information on the organisations mentioned in our conversation, here are some useful links. The African Innovation Foundation (AIF) where Pauline worked before founding AfriProspect and ShEquity. The Professional Women of African Heritage initiative (PROWAH) that Pauline co-founded in 2018.
Hi everyone, and welcome to narratives of purpose podcast, a place where we discuss how ordinary people are making extraordinary social impact. My name is Claire Murigande, and I am your host on this show. My guest on this episode is Pauline Koelbl. Pauline is an innovation expert in developing and emerging markets. Today we will speak about female empowerment, entrepreneurship, and of course innovation on the African continent. I really look forward to sharing this discussion with you. Hi Pauline, welcome to the podcast.
Hi, Claire. It's so great to be here.
Thank you for accepting my invitation. I'm really happy and very excited to have this conversation with you today. So before we dive into the discussion, let me share with our listeners a bit of your background. And I have to say it's a difficult test because your background is so impressive. So I hope that I will make the right selection here and feel free to add in any of the missing points that I would have probably left out. You are a graduate from the Institute of Development Studies, you hold a Masters in Development and Poverty. You're also a graduate from the Harvard University, the John F. Kennedy School of Government, you follow an Executive Education on Innovation for Economic Development there, from your professional background, you worked for almost eight years at the Africa Innovation Foundation as director for the innovation prize for Africa and as managing director for the foundation. You are also a co-founder of PWOAH. And PWOAH stands for Professional Women of African Heritage. And most recently, you founded AfriProspect and ShEquity So we will be speaking about that a bit later in the conversation. You are also a member of the board of directors and board of advisors of various companies. And finally, you are an international public speaker on topics related to sustainable development in Africa. But also innovation entrepreneurship inclusiveness, women and youth empowerment. Does that sound like a thorough overview of your profile and your experience?
Claire, thank you. If I was to introduce myself, I would just say I'm a woman with a purpose and passion to make a difference in this world. I think the race is everyone has a list of things they have done.
that's a great way to sum it up in very short words. Let's dive in with my very, very first question. Where does your passion for innovation come from?
Actually, to be quite honest with you, I feel like innovation found me. And then I got converted. So you probably want to know how when I joined AIF (the African Innovation Foundation) I didn't know much about innovation, and especially the innovation with the connection with Africa. Of course, I knew a bit about the pyramids in Egypt. I have heard about the Djinguereber Mosque in Timbuktu in Mali, to just name a few of most African landmarks which demonstrate African ingenuity. But I really didn't know much beyond that. So I had to really learn very quickly when the founder of AIF offered me the job to catalyse innovation across Africa. And I took this as my challenge because I don't like to disappoint and there was a lot of trust placed in me. Somehow the founder of AIF believed that I was the right person to take on this, this admission. So I did what I could. I took some courses. But also I started talking to people identifying the enablers and the influencers in this space. And then I really go to appreciate what innovation is about, what it can do. And the most recent we discovered was how Africa has been innovative since a long time ago. But as you and I know, we never learned those things in school when we were growing up. I never learned about innovation in Rwanda or any other places. So this was a really good discovery. And having this chance to travel across Africa, like from Cape Town to Cairo. Different countries in Sub Saharan Africa, interacting with the people actually who see problems. And instead of complaining about the problem, actually they create solutions, and then once they have solutions that they see, how can they take them to customers. So actually people can benefit from those solutions. So I'm basically during this journey of me discovering innovation. Having a mission to catalyse innovation across Africa, I became a champion, because I really believed what I saw, I believed what potential innovation has for any country, any continent. And also, having spent a lot of time outside of the African continent reminded me that none of the countries whether it's Switzerland, or other countries that you know, believed in US, UK friends have ever developed without investing in homegrown innovations. So I start actually questioning why we don't see this in our own continent. And I made it a mission to basically use my voice, any tools I have in AIF I had a tour, I had cash to give to the best innovators. But also I had a platform to use to demonstrate African ingenuity, not just by talking, but actually showcasing what Africans are creating to solve African challenges, but also how those solutions are very important for the rest of the continent.
You mentioned that before AIF you were not really familiar with innovation, more specifically innovation on the African continent. But you had already lived in Africa. What was your experience? I would say, once you started working with the foundation? First of all, how many countries were you ever lived in before you work at the foundation? And how many countries do you visit?
Claire, that's a lot of questions. So briefly, to remind me if I forget any one of those. So I went to AIF actually from the UN. I was working for WHO in Geneva, totally different types of organisations, different mindset, and AIF was small and nimble talking innovation, entrepreneurship, WHO we’re talking about convening, trying to get policies in the right places. So basically, this was a totally different environment, because I studied poverty and development. And we didn't really discuss innovation. The journey for me was also questioning why, whenever it came to a discussion about Africa, the word innovation was never associated with Africa, just from the conversations I have had, it's not like I didn't know the word innovation, so to speak, I just didn't know what it means. And the potential innovation holds for any country or anyone, so to speak, any community, any society, and also the fact that as Africans, actually, we were, you know, somehow were educated or brought up in a way that we didn't get to learn all the things that our ancestors have created, which growing up in Rwanda, and then leaving during the war, all I knew is basically go to school, you get a job and then become a bureaucrat, have a family and then you you are happy ever after. Right. But no, I have never never discussed innovation. So this was, for me, a very kind of, you know, awakening. I remember my first assignment was to actually go to Ethiopia and meet with the people at the UN Economic Commission for Africa, because they were our partners. And when I was getting ready to go, I started doing research to see innovation in Africa. And I discovered so many things that Africans have innovated, you know, the thinking that the whole civilization started in Africa, this was a new world to me. So I decided to not just make it, you know, the beginning but make it my life. So now in terms of which countries I lived in before leaving Africa, I lived, I was born and raised in Rwanda. And then when I leaved, I lived in Kenya, in the DRC Congo, and then Senegal, and then when I left, I went to the US. So when I came to Europe, I actually came to study in the UK, on the Fulbright scholarship. And when I finished I got another Fulbright to work at UNESCO in Paris. So from UNESCO, I was travelling to different countries, I got to visit different countries in Asia. And then when at WHO the same I was able to visit different countries, but then when I joined AIF really the mandate was to focus on Africa. So I visited - I don't know, I haven't really counted them up, but I know for sure more than 20 countries and I should have counted them. Actually I collect masks, so if I go and count them, I will be able to tell you how many countries I visited Africa! Did I answer all your questions?
Yes, absolutely. I just wanted to have a sense of you know, how it evolved also with you with you personally in the journey from already being born and raised in Africa, but also living outside of Africa. And then, you know, coming back with this other mission and say, just to see how that experience had resonated with you.
But maybe if I may add - the travel for me, during the work I did at AIF they were also very different, because I was travelling to actually meet with innovators who are actually working from garage like in Kenya, they call them jua cali. Like if people were using what they collect from whatever trash to make a solution, then they have a tool they need to use actually meeting with scientists sitting in a fancy labs in South Africa, or Morocco or Egypt, who basically have the first class labs that we find here in Switzerland, you find the newest or any other country in Europe, by also getting to engage with policymakers to the level of presidents to really give me a sense of humility and also kind of feeling grateful, because I go to engage with actually, people who form an ecosystem of innovation, because you need the policymakers you need they're doing innovators, you need academia, and you need a civil society to actually take invention to innovation into the market. So my travel was not just fancy, like, "Hey, let's go to another nice city" it was really a discovery engagement, but also a certain level of advocacy, about innovation, and what we can do for transforming Africa.
Yes, I hear that it's really like a holistic approach, right? Where you engage with every stakeholder, is that correct?
exactly. And that was really what I think was unique about this job. Because in the previous job you had your own target audience or stakeholder, as if things happen in silos. So with innovation, we understood it's all about the ecosystem.
And then brings me actually to the next point, I wanted to address you as a public speaker on different topics. And I just want to bring all these words together, innovation, entrepreneurship, youth empowerment, female empowerment, inclusiveness. So how are all these related for you? And how do you make them work or bring them together in your work?
So actually, I didn't choose this focus randomly, actually they feed into each other, they're very connected. So starting with innovation, innovation is a tool to solve challenges, right? To solve many challenges, you start by creating, inventing, and then you have an invention and then you transform into a solution that actually can be tested on a market. So when you create, when you have an innovation, once you manage to commercialise your innovation, you create new opportunities, including jobs. And also, like today, we are in the middle of COVID-19. Right - Think we have had, you know, there's two new vaccine that coming up, we won't have those vaccines, if we didn't have innovators, you know, just you can take two minutes to think about it, we could still be thinking about how many times we're going to be locked in like, if we were no recording this today, maybe next year, we could just be sitting face to face where we can actually record this face to face. Can you imagine this is possible because innovators can do this. So now they have a solution. They're going to solve COVID - Why are they doing this? They're going to make money, they're probably creating hope for us, I'm very hopeful. I feel like 2021 will be really amazing because of this hope brought by those vaccines. And most importantly, most of the innovations also actually tend to reduce inequalities between people. So I don't know if you've heard of social innovations, those are kind of innovations that are really trying to solve social challenges. And personally, I argue most of the impactful innovations, one way or another, touch on solving social problems. It might be not social in the sense of the way people think about anything social. But more like, again, if you think about the pandemic we have, this is a social problem, I think, because we are all societies that are affected by this problem. So if you think then from that perspective of how innovation creates jobs, creates hope, reduces inequality between people, you can see how this can lead to inclusive and sustainable growth, you know. So today, while many people are getting poorer, quite few people are getting richer and richer. And I believe innovation is one of those tools that we can actually use to reduce that inequality. So now I'm jumping to entrepreneurship. So usually people talk about invention innovation and the difference between invention and innovation. Is that invasion, it's you will have created something but no customers has tested it, or used it or bought it. To actually take your innovation to the market, you need someone with a different skill set. And that's an entrepreneur. So that's where entrepreneurship comes in. So which basically allows you to commercialise the innovation. So in fact, without entrepreneurs, we will only remain with invention, meaning we're going to have product services, patents somewhere that have no bearing on our lives. But thanks to entrepreneurs, they take that really good innovation, they package them, and then they take it to the market, they listen to the market, they get customer feedback, they go back and give a feedback to the inventor, so they can fine tune in a way that when then finally, the innovation hits the market, at the final stage, it kind of resolved the market needs, they respond to solve the problem, but also the customers are ready to pay because also someone has to pay so you can sustain it the circle of innovating. And then who innovates, right? Of course, right now you have a different age group innovating. But if you think about the fact that innovation is just about the future, you need to have empowered youth. Because if the youth, the younger people are not valuing innovation, they have no tools, they are, you know, struggling, then it means at some point, you're going to run out of human capital that you need to actually sustain this circle of innovation, entrepreneurship. So you can argue I'm sure because you're doing stuff in digital and technology, you can argue that "Yeah, but today, a lot of things are done by robots" you know. And if you do that, I will tell you actually, the first robot was made by humans, you know, so if we also don't want robots to take over, we actually have all incentive to make sure that we empower our youth. So they continue to actually be the one giving orders to robots and repairing robots that work for humanity, not the other way around. So again, having empowered youth, for me, it means that the human power will continue to innovate, and will create more opportunities for future generations. In the last, I mean, in terms of female empowerment. You know, I'm gonna throw out the statistics here, you probably heard about the fact that women represent more than 50% of world population, and they raise the remaining 50%. So I will just pause there, and what do you think about this?
It makes awesome sense to me.
Exactly. So if you take this in perspective, don't you think it makes sense, logica that we actually empower women? Because if we empower women, we are empowering the 50% of our people, but we're also empowering 50% of people who have the power to influence the remaining 50%. So then you wonder, why are we not doing this? You know, we are logical people. But somehow we're not doing this. And there are so many other statistics that show how the benefit of empowering women trickles down and benefits everyone. Another number and I will stop there numbers is that women reinvest about 90% of their revenue in the sector activity that benefits the family in societies. And this compared to about 40% for men, right? But the funding gap when it comes to businesses between men, even the promotion, and the woman, it's the other way around. So something is wrong, right. We need to fix it somehow. But anyway, I think I've made my case.
Absolutely. And this is like the perfect segue on the next topic I wanted to address with you. As you mentioned before, innovation is finding a solution to a problem. You made it really clear that this is a problem. So is your new venture addressing this problem that you uncovered?
Exactly, exactly. So AfriProspect busy connecting Africa innovators with global markets and mobilise mighty money for impactful female-led businesses. And the problem I wanted to address here is, you have a lot of incubation and accelerators in Africa. So which means a lot of Africans can now dream to become innovators and entrepreneurs. But when we look at the number of actual African ventures that get to grow and scale globally, they are just very few. So that's why when you go to conferences, people continue to cite the same example. And you think, okay, we are one point 1.3 billion right now in Africa. Why can we not have more, you know, innovation starting in Africa that go and span globally, so people can actually start seeing concretely how Africa is contributing globally. So I wanted to just use the AfriProspect to bring about, you know, those promising businesses, innovative businesses, that have a potential to grow and scale, and then connect those to my global market. And the second part was basically addressing the problem I just mentioned around the fact that women struggle to, you know, access, the capital, they need to basically contribute to the society, as I just said, and so that's how I set up ShEquity, because right now in Africa, there is 42 billion funding gap when you compare women and men. So basically, women struggle, continue to struggle to access the capital. While actually they are, there are more women embarking on entrepreneurship in Africa than anywhere in the world as we speak. You know, so basically solving two problems, one is around getting more African innovation to grow and scale. And the second is around, you know, economically empowering women who are already running businesses working hard. And they're not asking for charity, they're just asking to get access to opportunity to capital, like every other woman anywhere in the world.
So how do you identify these innovators or these companies or startups that you're supporting through your organisation? Do you have a network or people of reference in different countries? And you know what is happening? Can you tell us about that?
Yeah, exactly. So I have always believed in leveraging what you have. So when I decided to set up those two ventures to address the challenges I just mentioned, I also had to look at what were my assets, and my assets were really the network's I did when I was working at AIF, where I was able to reach over 55 African countries, and also worked with all key and incubators and accelerators across the continent. And also with my involvement in different boards, especially with my connection with green tech, a combination of all those engagement I have held in the past and I have now gives me access to really a good pipeline from sourcing deals, but also from being able to provide venture building support, because if I may mention, what I think we bring to the table in terms of addressing the female gender funding the gap is that also we provide venture building support, and also access to high value networks. Meaning that we want to make sure that if a woman needs to connect with someone in any country, for businesses, we can actually facilitate that, you know, because it becomes easier - how can I do that? Because of the networks I already have, the people I have worked with, and also believing that you don't need to reinvent the wheel, it's always good to partner. So I have a good collaboration with, for example, Green Tech, Capital Partners. So we've been, you know, collaborating with ShEquity. And right now actually the company I've invested in, they've been a part of the pipeline for Green Tech, which basically made it easier to find them, but also to screen them and do the due diligence. So in the end, it's a win-win for everyone. And the bigger winner is basically an African entrepreneur that we invested in, because then they have the cash and if support they need, they can now just focus on growing and scaling their businesses. And that's my intention.
And you mentioned previously the situation that we're all facing now globally, which is the COVID 19 pandemic, how has that affected your activities or the people you're working with on the continent?
So on my venture actually, not much. So I launched both AfriProspect and ShEquity during the COVID times, basically. And of course, when I was talking to a few friends, they thought this was a crazy thing because even though people were already in the business, they were waiting for you to come in as a new person in a new space. So they were like, you know, you "don't want to wait?" the question is like, "wait until what?" I decided to dive in especially because COVID means there's no travelling, that meant I could actually sit down and get all the admin stuff done in no time, which actually, it's a lot of work. If anyone who ever started at the company will tell you, it's a lot of work, we tend to undermine that part. So that was going because COVID allowed me to sit down and get it done. And then once I had the launch, I was able to reactivate my network for AfriProspect and started working with a few entrepreneurs. But also, anytime you are at every stage, the first thing that people know you are there, right. So you cannot also, you know, expect what you can achieve in year one. So for my assessment, and I think we have done it for a few months into business and COVID. And then for ShEquity, what we've been able to do, this is not my word, is the feedback I've gotten from other professional investors. Being able to invest in these three good companies within less than four months, it's quite an achievement. And because I also dived in and started and showed the skin in a game and social, the passion proved that actually, it's not just a dream, it can be done as an example of what we could invest in, I was able to get a few angel investors on board. So I will say it's actually not bad. Now I'm just ready for this to be over. So we can actually also grow ShEquity. And spread the impact.
Yeah, that's very impressive. Congratulations to you. So some of this COVID situation and staying at home has been a bit of an enabler for you.
I always think like, I mean, everyone said crisis as an opportunity as well, depending on how you look at it. And for me, I'm actually really grateful that I took this dive because now I can be able to say, okay, during the COVID, when everyone else was waiting for the good times, we took a chance, and we probably saved a few companies from having to make tough choices, which is a really, if you want to stay afloat was to reduce the team members or you know, consider some of the aspects of the business, which those are killers for any startup. So not only we've been able to actually invest in the good companies that probably might not even have been interested in the ShEquity offering as there were so many other options on the table, but also really amplify the type of impact I expected that we could have. Because those are the times where any cash is needed. Anyway, in the hands of an African startup.
Now looking forward, are you looking out for specific trends? How does that work in terms of identifying future innovations?
So what COVID has just demonstrated is that when you but we were not paying attention to it was like some some sectors are more important than others, right? Like agriculture, right? So when it comes to the African context, agriculture is kind of neglected because it's still substance in many ways. And most of the poor people are farmers, I don't know, you probably know, any poor person, you know, yourself in Africa is probably a farmer, right? But right now, with the COVID people realising that, hey, at the end of the day, everyone has to eat even people with money, they need to go and get food, the whole supply chain was disrupted. So the innovation in really making sure that the agriculture sector becomes more productive, resilient, the supply chain, the whole value chain, basically, because again, everyone needs to eat at the end of the day, the healthcare will realised that this is really very connected with every sector that you know, with with this COVID all systems were on hold, I mean, some of them are still on hold anyway. Right? So when it comes to Africa, the healthcare systems are quite weak. So I'm expecting that there's going to be more investment, they're gonna go into building resilience, those addressing the weaker healthcare system that we have on the continent. And of course, the innovators probably will be a part of this because it's not going to be the health care as usual. The renewable energy I think, when people had to stay home, they realised also the importance of having, you know, energy in many countries in our Africa right now. So electricity is on and off. But if you were to have access to renewable energy, you can actually address this issue. And of course, technology. I mean, this cannot be overemphasised, like we realise without technology, you know, classes were off, you know, a lot of people were able to do online learning, but people in rural areas don't have access to the internet. They struggle, right. So I believe there will be more now a focus on looking at how to connect unconnected people is a priority. And then overall, I assume there's going to be a movement around this whole concept of building back, you know, better, where basically people have to fix wrongs that were there before COVID again, those are around not investing in women, not empowering young people. All those are the backbones of society. So the whole post COVID, I think is going to be around building resilience for the future. I expect that they're going to be new programmes or collaborations also to make it happen, because we have seen that the lack of collaboration also means there's a piece made type of solution. And lastly, I'm looking forward to seeing how some of the innovation that came about, because of COVID will be scaled, you know, maybe we are forced scared or adapted, but we won't just die because they proved they can respond quickly to a shock and probably can be leveraged for something else.
Do you have any specific example in mind on that last point?
So I know a few scientists in Senegal were able to come up with a system where they can actually have the machines that people were using, you know, for COVID. During the time where countries were bidding and competing together for access to PPE material. So they say the Senigallia scientists actually came up with their own PPE material they're able to actually share with other countries.
So Pauline, I think now we are slowly reaching the end of our conversation. But I still have one question related to your experience so far, I've always been curious to ask this to many people. And now I'm asking it to you, so what is the one piece of advice that you still consider to have served you throughout your whole journey? You still consider today as a very strong advice? What would that be?
I have one but an impact on different levels? Can I share that?
Yes, of course you can.
So one is really the word hope, you know HOPE, right? So I knew like holding onto hope is a key to any situation, anything you you struggling with, you know, hope will carry you through. But actually, I discovered later how this is an abbreviation to something that means Hold On Pain Eases. H - Hold. O - On. P - Pain. E - Eases. So hold on pain eases; so this for me and again, so I didn't go into my personal stories, but those who know me, they know that my, my journey has not been a red carpet, you know, to simplify things, so this, for me reminds me that saying that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but you need to hold onto that hope. And also like whatever you you holding on your heart, you have to work hard to do your share, or write and be kind, because it says even when you're struggling, you have no excuse for being mean. You have to remain kind. Because at the end, I believe, and there's always an angel on the way, you just need to focus on finding such angels. And I can tell you, this is not easy when you are in a dark place or a very bad situation where there is no light, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. But I think I'm an example for how if you don't give up and you hold on hope you work hard, you stay kind, many angels come your way. So I was helped and I'm very grateful for that. I'm still being helped until today. So I could have given up at some point when I was a refugee and I was just a number for many people. But then, when I was there I remember I always believed that that was something temporary for me like that wasn't my life, you know? And then yeah, people came and they really helped me and they helped me regain my identity. Paulina - the woman you're talking to today, who is no longer in number. And they mentored me, they took me through the journey of going back to School, you know, really pursuing competitive opportunities like Fulbright, that was something I would never dream about when I was a number in a refugee camp. Opened many doors, and also kind of reminded me that I needed to also remember that this journey does not end with me. So that's actually what has really pushed me to always want to have a life with purpose. And that has been my motivation to want to pay it forward. And that's why when you asked me if I wanted to add it to my introduction, I said I just believe I'm a woman with the purpose and the passion to make a difference in this world. And this is not something I was born with, I just learned through my journey where I realised the power of hope, and the power of, you know, just not giving up and working hard and being kind.
It's very powerful and very moving. Thank you so much for sharing that we are now at the end of the show, but before I let you go, I have a rapid questionnaire, three very, very short questions for listeners to know you a little bit better on the personal side as well. Question number one. What are you listening to non stop these days in terms of music?
So here, I'm going to disappoint you, I don't really have a particular playlist, I like to take advantage of technology and pick the type of music from Spotify based on my mood, my activities and the time in a day. For example, when I'm cooking, I like to listen to an African beat mix. So I can chop and dance at the same time.
Okay, I can imagine you're doing that!
You know me well! if it's late in the evening, like jazz type, and again, because for me, I realised that technology allows you to discover, right? That's why I use it to go and look at the mix and then learn and discover new music. But I must confess though, like this time, this song The Jeruzalem I don't know if you know it rings in my head all the time.
Question number two, do you have a song or an artist or a band that particularly resonated with you at a specific time in your life?
So I actually have two, one is the WakaWaka before this song was stolen by you know Shakira quote unquote, "stolen" I knew it because I was a girl scout a long time ago and we used to dance to this song. So this brings me back to my way past a happy life as a kid and then the other one is happy. You can't help not being happy when you listen to this song.
This is the very next question: what is your all time favourite album you certainly recommend. If you don't have an album, you can also recommend a book.
In terms of books. If I was to just pick one book, this is the challenge. I will pick the book called Homo Deus, which is a book about the brief history of tomorrow. It's a New York Times Best Selling Author, Yuval Noah Harare, and basically talks about the future of humanity. He wrote two books, the first one was Happy and the second one is Homo Deus. My hope is that whoever picks up Homo Deus will want to read Sapiens as well. Because I think if you read those, they're written from, you know, historical perspective. But also, there's a science innovation involved. It really takes you on a journey of understanding where we came from and where we're heading.
I will make sure that all these references that you shared with me right now, the book and the music will be included on the podcast page for the listeners to come back to that. Thank you so much. Again, I can't stop thanking you because this was really a great conversation. I learned a lot. You're always a passionate person to listen to. And this is just another day that I'm living through that passion of yours. Thank you so much. And I hope to see you soon.
Thank you so much Claire for this opportunity to chat with you.
That was episode one, a conversation with Pauline Koelbl. Pauline is really a passionate woman who never ceases to amaze me, and I can't wait to see what she will achieve next. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to today's episode. I really appreciate you taking the time. You'll find all relevant information on this episode on the podcast page. Here is a reference narratives-of-purpose.podcast page.io Until the next episode, take care of yourselves. Stay well and stay inspired